Karten on Medina

Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:59:37 -0700 From: "Harvey J. Karten" <hjkarten@ucsd.edu> Reply-To: hjkarten@ucsd.edu Organization: UCSD X-Accept-Language: en,pdf To: Loreta Medina Hernandez <lmedina@um.es> Subject: Re: preliminary proposal X-MailScanner: Clean X-RCPT-TO: <jarvis@neuro.duke.edu> Status: R

Dear Loreta,

I am just starting to go through your proposal in more detail. I have some reservations about your subdivisions of the wulst. The HA may seem more medial that the HD in chicks and pigeons, but not in many other birds. Rather, the HA, HIS, HD, IHA, etc., appear to be laminae, as seen in owl and a number of other birds (even many passerines). These are more similar to the layers of cortex, although traditionally they were originally treated as individual nuclei. Unlike the layers of cortex, it still isn't clear how much internuclear (i.e. interlaminar) connections may be present.

There is a confusing matter that does arise with the liberal use of the term "pallium". The implication is laudable, as you imply that these structures arise from regions that are suggestively homologous to pallial components in mammals. However, they are not actually pallial in appearance, and perhaps not in organization. (Although Scheich has shown that L1, L2 and L3 do have a pallial like interlaminar arrangement.)

Similarly, I wonder about the wisdom of renaming the archistriatum, and its various subdivisions, as amygdala. That may have been implied in the original concept, but there are differing schools of thought on this matter at this time. Certainly, the n. taeniae and the posteromedial division resemble some of the components of the mammalian amygdala. There is still dispute about a number of the divisions, and designating them as amygdaloid at this time would not be beneficial to future understanding.

A good example of this would be the designation of the OMT division that projects to the trigeminal and rostrolateral tegmentum, etc. (not including the portion that may project upon the nuc. solitarius, Kolliker Fuse, parabrachial, etc.) most clearly resembles the Bundle of Bagley which arises from pericentral cortex in goats (Busch and Verhaart). As in artiodactylae, the asonxs course in teh dorslateral tegmentum. In primates, this same group of projections courses mainly, but not exclusively (see Kuypers) in the ventral cerebral peduncles. Your designation of this as a ventral amygdalofugal tract would imply that it has the same nature of origin and projections as the similarly named tract in mammals. The choice of this name would seem to take exception from the principles clearly outlined in the Striedter and Perkel proposal.

As I also mentioned in my previous note, Kuhlenbeck clearly stated that he thought that the nucleus basalis (target of trigeminal inputs, and distinct from the n. Basalis of Meynert) was NOT epibasal/epistriatal. He suggested that it was a truly basal cell group.

I am also surprised by the lack of any suggestions dealing with a number of the other cell groups in the diencephalon. No mention is made of dorsal thalamic nuclei, hypothalamus, various pretectal cell groups, accessory optic nuclei, nuc. ruber, etc.

Perhaps these can be dealt with in a subsequent revision.

fondest regards, and many thanks for your great efforts on behalf of the group of us

Harvey Loreta Medina Hernandez wrote:

> Dear Harvey,
> Thank you very much for your message. I think that it is a good idea to
> make a clear distinction between the nucleus basalis in the avian
> neostriatum and the mammalian nucleus Basalis of Meynert. The homologue of
> the latter in birds is possibly included in the cholinergic cell group of
> the basal telencephalon that we proposed to call the basal magnocellular
> nucleus (BM).
> Best wishes,
> Loreta
> >Dear Loreta,
> >A very useful and thoughtful contribution. There are some similarities to
> >the terminology suggested by Kuhlenbeck, who may have used the term
> >"Epibasalis" for many of the structures you call Epistriatalis. However,
> >Kuhlenbeck pointed out that the nucleus Basalis was not part of this field.
> >Please also note, as you are well aware, the nucleus "Basalis" of Edinger,
> >Wallenberg and Holmes is not related to the nucleus basalis of Meynert, as
> >found in mammals. The avian "nucleus basalis" is in direct receipt of
> >projections of the principal nucleus of the trigeminus via the
> >Quinto-Frontal Tract of Wallenberg. The nucleus basalis of Meynert is not in
> >receipt of trigeminal afferents. The nucleus basalis of birds should
> >possibly be referred to as the nucleus basalis trigemini (nBT?) to
> >distinguish it from the Basalis of Meynert (very rich in ChAT).
> >
> >The nature of the homologic relationship of nBT to structures in mammals
> >remains unresolved.
> >
> >I believe that J. Martin Wild is presently the greatest expert on the topic
> >of this cell group.
> >
> >Congratulations on a solid contribution.
> >
> >regards,
> >Harvey
> >
> >-----
> >Harvey J. Karten, M.D.
> >Dept. of Neurosciences
> >La Jolla, CA 92093
> >EMail: hjkarten@ucsd.edu
> >----- Original Message -----

> >From: "Loreta Medina Hernandez" <lmedina@um.es>
> >To: "Erich Jarvis" <jarvis@neuro.duke.edu>; "Harvey J. Karten"
> ><hjkarten@ucsd.edu>; "Anton J. Reiner" <areiner@utmem1.utmem.edu>; "Georg
> >Striedter" <gstriedt@uci.edu>; "Andras Csillag" <csillag@ana.sote.hu>;
> >"Wayne Kuenzel" <wk16@umail.umd.edu>; "Martin Wild"
> ><JM.WILD@auckland.ac.nz>; "David Perkel" <perkel@u.washington.edu>; "Shimizu
> >Toru" <shimizu@chuma1.cas.usf.edu>; "Puelles Luis" <puelles@fcu.um.es>;
> >"Loreta Medina Hernandez" <lmedina@um.es>
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 11:04 AM
> >Subject: preliminary proposal

> >
> >
> >> Dear Erich, Dear Thinktanker colleagues and friends,
> >>
> >> We are sending you a preliminary proposal for changing some of the avian
> >> brain names, to be discussed at the Avian Brain Nomenclature Forum in
> >July.
> >> We are attaching two Word files, one for the text and one for a Table. We
> >> would be very grateful if you read this preliminary proposal and tell us
> >> criticisms and suggestions for improvement. We are happy to receive
> >> comments from all of you.
> >>
> >> We also like to add that we defend the beautiful spirit nicely clarified
> >> this morning by Georg Striedter, in the sense that we will go to the Forum
> >> with an open mind, prepared to debate the different issues, and happy to
> >> support any other proposal or part of it whenever we consider it better
> >> than ours.
> >>
> >> We are looking forward to receiving your criticisms and comments.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Loreta Medina and Luis Puelles
> >>
> >
> >
> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----
> >
> >
> >Dra. Loreta Medina
> >Profesora Titular de Universidad
> >Departamento de Ciencias Morfologicas y Psicobiologia
> >Area de Ciencias Morfologicas
> >Facultad de Medicina
> >Universidad de Murcia
> >30100 Murcia, Espaņa
> >Telefono: 968-364340
> >Fax: 968-364340
> >e-mail: lmedina@um.es
> >
> >Loreta Medina, Ph.D.
> >Associate Professor
> >Dept. Morphological Sci.
> >Faculty of Medicine
> >University of Murcia
> >30100 Murcia, Spain
> >Phone: 34-968-364340
> >Fax: 34-968-363955
> >e-mail: lmedina@um.es
> Dra. Loreta Medina
> Profesora Titular de Universidad
> Departamento de Ciencias Morfologicas y Psicobiologia
> Area de Ciencias Morfologicas
> Facultad de Medicina
> Universidad de Murcia
> 30100 Murcia, Espaņa
> Telefono: 968-364340
> Fax: 968-364340
> e-mail: lmedina@um.es
> Loreta Medina, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor
> Dept. Morphological Sci.
> Faculty of Medicine
> University of Murcia
> 30100 Murcia, Spain
> Phone: 34-968-364340
> Fax: 34-968-363955
> e-mail: lmedina@um.es

Harvey J. Karten, M.D.
Dept. of Neurosciences
University of California at San Diego
La Jolla, CA 92093
Phone (Voice) 858-534-4938
FAX  858-534-6602
EMail: hjkarten@ucsd.edu
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